We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation. I see that we have two choices. Either she doesn't and can't pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter) We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us) We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account. So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated. Thank you, -Miriam Andrus, Director Big Rapids Community Library
Just waive the fine. The time and effort going into the training to let her work it off probably costs more. Kevin King Kalamazoo Public Library Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:02 PM -0400, "Miriam Andrus" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us<mailto:mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us>> wrote: We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation. I see that we have two choices. Either she doesn’t and can’t pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter) We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us) We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account. So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated. Thank you, -Miriam Andrus, Director Big Rapids Community Library
I agree with Kevin. In addition, bartering volunteer hours for fines is also a slippery slope that other patrons will expect to be able to do as well. And that is one step shy of accepting payment in the form of goods, like quilts or livestock. (Just stretching the thought out to its illogical conclusion, which is something patrons may do too.) Best of luck resolving your issue! :-) --Meaghan -----Original Message----- From: michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org [mailto:michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Friday, September 02, 2016 2:24 PM To: Miriam Andrus <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us>; Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org) <michlib-l@mcls.org> Subject: Re: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff- Just waive the fine. The time and effort going into the training to let her work it off probably costs more. Kevin King Kalamazoo Public Library Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:02 PM -0400, "Miriam Andrus" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us<mailto:mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us>> wrote: We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation. I see that we have two choices. Either she doesn't and can't pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter) We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us) We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account. So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated. Thank you, -Miriam Andrus, Director Big Rapids Community Library _______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
All-- I agree, I would waive the fine without volunteer compensation. Meaghan: I actually had a patron who attempted to barter her $50 fine with a cheesecake. I was very, very new to my position and it put me in such a strange position! I decided to base my decisions on....would I do this for all patrons out there? Since the answer was no, I refused the barter. Thankfully no one else has attempted anything else like this! Kerry Fountain, Director Saranac Public Library 616-642-9146 Clarksville Area Library 616-693-1001 sarkf@llcoop.org ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Meaghan Battle <M.Battle@troymi.gov> To: "'Kevin King'" <KevinK@kpl.gov>, "'Miriam Andrus'" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us>, "'Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org)'" <michlib-l@mcls.org> Sent: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 18:27:48 +0000 Subject: Re: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff-
I agree with Kevin. In addition, bartering volunteer hours for fines is also a slippery slope that other patrons will expect to be able to do as well. And that is one step shy of accepting payment in the form of goods, like quilts or livestock. (Just stretching the thought out to its illogical conclusion, which is something patrons may do too.)
Best of luck resolving your issue! :-)
--Meaghan
-----Original Message----- From: michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org [mailto:michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Friday, September 02, 2016 2:24 PM To: Miriam Andrus <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us>; Michlib-L (michlib- l@mcls.org) <michlib-l@mcls.org> Subject: Re: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff-
Just waive the fine. The time and effort going into the training to let her work it off probably costs more.
Kevin King Kalamazoo Public Library
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:02 PM -0400, "Miriam Andrus" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us<mailto:mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us>> wrote:
We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation. I see that we have two choices. Either she doesn't and can't pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter) We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us)
We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account.
So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated. Thank you,
-Miriam Andrus, Director Big Rapids Community Library
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l ------- End of Original Message -------
Having her work off the fine/replacement costs would probably end up costing you money since you would have to have someone "train" and supervise her. I'd let it go and consider it an exception to the rule. I would explain to her that your are making an exception and that it is a one time deal. Then put a note in her record stating that future fines will not be waived - that is if you are keeping her patron record in the system. Just because you waive one fine, does not mean you have to waive fines for others. Hope that helps! Patty Braden Library Director Romulus Public Library 11121 Wayne Road Romulus, MI 48174 (734) 942-7589 www.romulus.lib.mi.us Serving Romulus and Huron Township ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miriam Andrus" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us> To: "Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org)" <michlib-l@mcls.org> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 2:01:13 PM Subject: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff- We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation. I see that we have two choices. Either she doesn’t and can’t pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter) We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us) We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account. So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated. Thank you, -Miriam Andrus, Director Big Rapids Community Library _______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
Perhaps waive the fine, and still encourage her to volunteer of her own free will. She's willing to give back, so allow her to do so without expressly equating her hours of work to a dollar amount. (Feel free to comment if there is a downside to this solution that I have not yet recognized!) ~JL Jocelyn (Baldwin) Levin, MLIS jmb.mlis@gmail.com *From: *"Miriam Andrus" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us>
*To: *"Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org)" <michlib-l@mcls.org> *Sent: *Friday, September 2, 2016 2:01:13 PM *Subject: *[Michlib-l] Patron Payoff-
We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation.
I see that we have two choices.
Either she doesn’t and can’t pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter)
We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us)
We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account.
So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated.
Thank you,
-Miriam Andrus, Director
Big Rapids Community Library
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
Then, there are all of the potential workplace liability issues to consider. If she should become injured on the library workplace site, while working off her fines, and costs, is she then an employee? Is the Library liable for Worker's Compensation, etc.? Waive the fees. Let it go. Kirk Nims, Librarian (Contractor) US EPA NVFEL Library 2000 Traverwood Dr. Ann Arbor, MI 48105-2195 734-214-4434 734-214-4525 fax Contract services provided by ASRC Primus Solutions at this library. ________________________________ From: michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org <michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org> on behalf of Patricia Braden <pbraden@tln.lib.mi.us> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 2:31 PM To: Miriam Andrus Cc: Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org) Subject: Re: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff- Having her work off the fine/replacement costs would probably end up costing you money since you would have to have someone "train" and supervise her. I'd let it go and consider it an exception to the rule. I would explain to her that your are making an exception and that it is a one time deal. Then put a note in her record stating that future fines will not be waived - that is if you are keeping her patron record in the system. Just because you waive one fine, does not mean you have to waive fines for others. Hope that helps! Patty Braden Library Director Romulus Public Library<http://www.romulus.lib.mi.us/> 11121 Wayne Road Romulus, MI 48174 (734) 942-7589 www.romulus.lib.mi.us<http://www.romulus.lib.mi.us> Serving Romulus and Huron Township <http://www.romulus.lib.mi.us>[cid:38a0b15501445807a84d9f3cc6a5cbe4e0fe9544@zimbra] ________________________________ From: "Miriam Andrus" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us> To: "Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org)" <michlib-l@mcls.org> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 2:01:13 PM Subject: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff- We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation. I see that we have two choices. Either she doesn't and can't pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter) We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us) We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account. So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated. Thank you, -Miriam Andrus, Director Big Rapids Community Library _______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
As an another alternative, may I suggest a food for fines day? Once per year we accept canned goods that we donate to local food pantries. This may give some residents an out if they just absolutely have no other option. MPM On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Nims, Kirk <Nims.Kirk@epa.gov> wrote:
Then, there are all of the potential workplace liability issues to consider.
If she should become injured on the library workplace site, while working off her fines, and costs, is she then an employee? Is the Library liable for Worker's Compensation, etc.?
Waive the fees. Let it go.
Kirk Nims, Librarian (Contractor)
US EPA NVFEL Library
2000 Traverwood Dr.
Ann Arbor, MI 48105-2195
734-214-4434
734-214-4525 fax
Contract services provided by ASRC Primus Solutions at this library.
------------------------------ *From:* michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org <michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org> on behalf of Patricia Braden <pbraden@tln.lib.mi.us> *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2016 2:31 PM *To:* Miriam Andrus *Cc:* Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org) *Subject:* Re: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff-
Having her work off the fine/replacement costs would probably end up costing you money since you would have to have someone "train" and supervise her. I'd let it go and consider it an exception to the rule. I would explain to her that your are making an exception and that it is a one time deal. Then put a note in her record stating that future fines will not be waived - that is if you are keeping her patron record in the system. Just because you waive one fine, does not mean you have to waive fines for others.
Hope that helps!
Patty Braden Library Director Romulus Public Library <http://www.romulus.lib.mi.us/> 11121 Wayne Road Romulus, MI 48174 (734) 942-7589 www.romulus.lib.mi.us
Serving Romulus and Huron Township
<http://www.romulus.lib.mi.us>
------------------------------ *From: *"Miriam Andrus" <mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us> *To: *"Michlib-L (michlib-l@mcls.org)" <michlib-l@mcls.org> *Sent: *Friday, September 2, 2016 2:01:13 PM *Subject: *[Michlib-l] Patron Payoff-
We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation.
I see that we have two choices.
Either she doesn’t and can’t pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter)
We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us)
We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account.
So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated.
Thank you,
-Miriam Andrus, Director
Big Rapids Community Library
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
-- Michael Mccaffery Director Dearborn Heights City Libraries 24590 George St. Dearborn Heights, MI 48127 313-791-3800 mmccaffery@ci.dearborn-heights.mi.us
Good suggestion! We do this in the spring and set a limit of $5.00. One thing to be aware of is some people try to give expired canned goods. ------------------ Donna Winter, Automation Services Librarian Livonia Public Library 32777 Five Mile Road Livonia, MI 48154 ph: 734-466-2675 ----- Original Message -----
As an another alternative, may I suggest a food for fines day? Once per year we accept canned goods that we donate to local food pantries. This may give some residents an out if they just absolutely have no other option.
MPM
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Nims, Kirk < Nims.Kirk@epa.gov > wrote:
Then, there are all of the potential workplace liability issues to consider.
If she should become injured on the library workplace site, while working off her fines, and costs, is she then an employee? Is the Library liable for Worker's Compensation, etc.?
Waive the fees. Let it go.
Kirk Nims, Librarian (Contractor)
US EPA NVFEL Library
2000 Traverwood Dr.
Ann Arbor, MI 48105-2195
734-214-4434
734-214-4525 fax
Contract services provided by ASRC Primus Solutions at this library.
From: michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org < michlib-l-bounces@mcls.org > on behalf of Patricia Braden < pbraden@tln.lib.mi.us > Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 2:31 PM To: Miriam Andrus Cc: Michlib-L ( michlib-l@mcls.org ) Subject: Re: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff-
Having her work off the fine/replacement costs would probably end up costing you money since you would have to have someone "train" and supervise her. I'd let it go and consider it an exception to the rule. I would explain to her that your are making an exception and that it is a one time deal. Then put a note in her record stating that future fines will not be waived - that is if you are keeping her patron record in the system. Just because you waive one fine, does not mean you have to waive fines for others.
Hope that helps!
Patty Braden Library Director Romulus Public Library 11121 Wayne Road Romulus, MI 48174 (734) 942-7589 www.romulus.lib.mi.us
Serving Romulus and Huron Township
From: "Miriam Andrus" < mandrus@bigrapids.lib.mi.us > To: "Michlib-L ( michlib-l@mcls.org )" < michlib-l@mcls.org > Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 2:01:13 PM Subject: [Michlib-l] Patron Payoff-
We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation.
I see that we have two choices.
Either she doesn’t and can’t pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter)
We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us)
We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account.
So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated.
Thank you,
-Miriam Andrus, Director
Big Rapids Community Library
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
_______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
--
Michael Mccaffery Director Dearborn Heights City Libraries 24590 George St. Dearborn Heights, MI 48127 313-791-3800 mmccaffery@ci.dearborn-heights.mi.us _______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
I agree with the other posters here that waiving the fine would be the simplest, most efficient approach. The floodgates can still be managed. -- Joseph Gross Director Ransom District Library jgross@ransomlibrary.org (269)685-8024 On 9/2/2016 2:01 PM, Miriam Andrus wrote:
We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation.
I see that we have two choices.
Either she doesn’t and can’t pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter)
We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us)
We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account.
So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated.
Thank you,
-Miriam Andrus, Director
Big Rapids Community Library
I have done this before--we just agreed to an amount we would forgive per hour worked (think we did min wage). No one else has asked since, but I would do it again. Good luck. Heather Center Line Library Sent from my iPhone On Sep 2, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Joe Gross <jgross@ransomlibrary.org<mailto:jgross@ransomlibrary.org>> wrote: I agree with the other posters here that waiving the fine would be the simplest, most efficient approach. The floodgates can still be managed. -- Joseph Gross Director Ransom District Library jgross@ransomlibrary.org<mailto:jgross@ransomlibrary.org> (269)685-8024 On 9/2/2016 2:01 PM, Miriam Andrus wrote: We have an interesting predicament at the Big Rapids Community Library. We have a patron who moved and lost 3 audiobooks. We have charged her for the lost items and eventually she was sent to collections. She contacted the library and being unemployed, she has asked if she can work off the fine. She just graduated from college and is job hunting, hence she has no money to pay the fine. I approached my board with her request and they asked me to poll the group of libraries to see what your thoughts are and if anyone has ever dealt with this kind of a situation. I see that we have two choices. Either she doesn't and can't pay the fine so it sits on her account perpetually (which really does us no good or her for that matter) We let her volunteer to pay off her fine (this opens the flood gates for other people to do the same thing, also not good for us) We could of course waive the fine but that also opens a flood gate. Also, I should mention she moved out of our service area and still wants to settle her account. So we are stuck. Any wisdom from the group would be appreciated. Thank you, -Miriam Andrus, Director Big Rapids Community Library _______________________________________________ Michlib-l mailing list Michlib-l@mcls.org<mailto:Michlib-l@mcls.org> http://mail2.mcls.org/mailman/listinfo/michlib-l
participants (11)
-
Donna Winter -
Heather Hames -
Jocelyn Baldwin Levin -
Joe Gross -
Kevin King -
Meaghan Battle -
Michael Mccaffery -
Miriam Andrus -
Nims, Kirk -
Patricia Braden -
SAR Kerry Fountain